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A Little Info

Discussion in 'GRAZIANO LATHES' started by Nels, May 27, 2016.

  1. Nels

    Nels United States Founder Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    This is from Tony Griffith
    www.lathes.co.uk

    email: tony@lathes.co.uk
    Home Machine Tool Archive Machine-tools Sale & Wanted
    Machine Tool Manuals Catalogues Belts Books AccessoriesGraziano SAG Lathes - Italy
    Instruction, Maintenance & Parts
    Manuals for many SAG lathes are available

    Graziano machine tools were made in Tortona, Italy and although a wide range of lathes was manufactured, the company's most popular appears to have been the SAG 180, later to be sold as the improved SAG 14. The later version had a bed some 3/8" wider, much larger micrometer dials, a hand-operated bed and cross slide lubrication pump, top and cross slides in steel instead of cast iron, a micrometer-dial equipped carriage-traverse handwheel and other small modifications. Designed as a high-class, precision machine (at an expensive £1048 in the late 1950s), the lathe was twice as costly as an English Willson lathe of equivalent size yet, even so, found a ready market, especially in America, where several thousand were sold. With a 180 mm (7") centre-height, the lathe's had a bed that was flame-hardened and ground-finished with V-ways and constructed as a "double-height" type - not unlike the arrangement used on some flat-bed Drummond lathes in the 1920s - with the carriage running on the covered lower ways and the tailstock on the higher (exposed) set. The arrangement provided a usefully deep "gap", though without the usual weakening effect of a removable bed piece. Fitted with multiple, longitudinal carriage "throw-out" stops as standard, the carriage had long and very wide swarf covers that extended right to the tailstock end of the bed - this latter detail, and the raised bedways, can also be clearly seen in the photographs at the bottom of this page.
    While the lathe was generally on a par with the contemporary Colchester Triumph, its nine speeds (obtained through gears made from heat-treated and ground nickel-chrome steel forgings) were rather more useful, running from 45 to 1500 rpm or, optionally, 54 to 1800. With a 2-speed motor sixteen speeds from 30 to 1200 rpm could be obtained and the makers offered the facility to vary the top and bottom speeds by fitting different sizes of pulley. The motor was a 5 h.p. unit (with electrical control by a "third shaft" operated by a lever pivoting from the right-hand face of the apron) with the spindle arranged for instant reverse through a double friction clutch (though not all models may have been so equipped). Usefully, the spindle start, stop and reverse could be operated from controls on the apron as well as the headstock.
    Equipped with a D.1-5" nose, the 2-inch bore spindle of the early 180 ran in plain bearings at the front - with bearings at the rear consisting of two axial thrust type and one parallel roller bearing. Any thermal expansion of the spindle went towards the tailstock through a split phosphor bronze bush held in a conical taper housing - by which means it could be drawn in and the clearance adjusted. Later-model 180s had three English-made "Gamet" high-precision bearings were and the spindle bore increased in size to 2.25 inches - changes carried over to the next model, the SAG 14. While the bushed spindle had a large notched threaded collar to adjust the bearing clearance, the Gamet-bearing equipped machines can be identified by a bevelled collar held on with socket head-cap screws behind the D1-5 spindle nose. One other change on later models was the deletion of a useful cast iron raiser block that bolted directly to T-slots at the rear of the cross slide - the block accepting custom-tool holders by Rapid of Italy.
    Screwcutting and feeds was by a dual metric/inch fully-enclosed, all-lever gearbox (there were no openings to admit swarf or dirt) with initially, a 3-range A-B-C selection that was later increased to a 5-range A-B-C-D-E. type Late-model lathes had a 3/8"-pitch leadscrew, early ones a 1/2".
    Generously equipped for a 1960s model, the 180 had, as part of its standard equipment, a 12" independent 4-jaw chuck, fixed and travelling steadies, a Herson quick-change toolpost, coolant and spanners.
    As Graziano subjected the machine to continuous improvement, it is difficult to be specific about changes to the design; however, in summary, there were at least two versions of the SAG180: a 2" bore plain-bearing spindle with an "A-B-C" screwcutting gearbox and a 1/2" pitch leadscrew, then a type with a Gamet bearing, "A-B-C-D" gearbox with a 3/8" leadscrew. However, there may have been a third, or at least a maker's variation on specification (possibly to use up spare parts) - a 1978 SAG180 being found in the US with the A-B-C-D-E gearbox and a 2.25" spindle bore (thus being, in effect, a SAG14 labelled as a SAG180).
    The history of the Graziano concern is rather complicated: a Maho Graziano brochure dated 1989 says that in 1987 Graziano S.p.A was acquired by Maho AG and became Maho Graziano SPA. Although details of when Deckel and Maho combined is not known, by 1994 they were bankrupt and taken over by Gildemeister AG (DMG). In 1996 DMG sold its majority stake in its Italian lathe manufacturer (though a name was not given, it is believed that they owned more than one) only to reacquire them (Graziano, Gital and Sacoand) in 2000 as "Gildemeister Italiana"). The Graziano Tortona plant is still mentioned on the DMG website, though it's hard to pin down what the factory makes..
    In October 2013 the parent company was renamed from Gildemeister AG to DMG Mori Seiki AG.

    img0.gif
    Graziano Model SAG 14 (previously the SAG 180) 7" centre height by 40" or 60" between centres with an unusual "double-height" bed, not unlike an EnglishDrummond from the 1920s.

    img1.gif
    The 10-inch centre height Graziano Model SAG 508 was also badged as the SAG 20 and, with a reduced centre height, as the 230. It featured a hardened "double-height" bed, clearly visible in this end-on illustration, fitted with long swarf-guard covers which extended right to the tailstock end. The carriage sliding feed was fitted with multiple, longitudinal carriage "throw-out" stops as standard and the spindle start, stop and reverse could be operated from controls on the apron.
    Running on Gamet high-precision bearings and fitted with a D.1-6" Camlock nose the 2.25" bore spindle was provided with twelve speeds from 26 to 1300 rpm - with an optional, slightly slower set available to special order. The headstock gears were made from heat-treated and ground nickel-chrome steel forgings whilst the screwcutting gearbox provided a range of English, Metric and Module pitches - 40 English, 40 metric, 40 diametral and 40 module - without resort to changing or resetting any of the changewheels.
    A 16" independent 4-jaw chuck, fixed and travelling steadies, Herson quick-change toolpost, coolant and spanners were supplied as standard.

    img2.gif
    A SAG 20 / SAG 508 / SAG 230 with slightly different styling--but of identical mechanical construction to the 508 shown above. This model was offered with centre distances of 1500 mm (59"), 2000 mm (78.7") and 2500 mm (98.4"). The swing in the gap was 708 mm (27.8") .


    img3.gif
    Clearly seen in this illustration the double-height bed of the Sag 12 (SAG 153) continued the Grazianio tradition on this, the smallest lathe in the series. The Model 12, had a centre height of 153 mm (6") and accepted 800 mm (31.5") between centres. A detachable gap piece was listed as an option and, with this removed, is was possible to turn a piece of material 440 mm (17") in diameter and 200 mm deep.
    English Gamet high-precision bearings were selected for the headstock - a double row of opposed rollers behind the nose and the end bearing (in a manner employed on many Colchester lathes at the time) having an outer ring preloaded by a set of springs to compensate for the effects of heating. The 15/8" bore spindle used a D.1-4" Camlock nose, a 4 Morse taper centre and was provided with eight speeds from 80 to 2000 r.p.m.
    A very useful feature of these machines was the ability to change spindle speeds on the move - a system that involved four gears, in constant mesh in the main gearbox, being free to turn on their shafts but with each connected to a magnetically operated clutch that could lock it to its shaft. As a further refinement a forward/reverse clutch was also fitted that meant changes of both speed and direction could be managed by simply activating the required clutch through a small 'joy-stick' on the carriage - a small 'click' giving an instant change as the gear became locked. Normally eight speeds were provided but, with the optional 2-speed motor fitted, this became 16. However, although this was a most useful speed range - and very easily controlled - like Italian cars of the period the lathe's electrical reliability did not inspire the greatest of confidence.
    Able to generate a generous range of 60 rates of sliding and surfacing feeds and 30 English, 30 metric and 30 module threads the screwcutting gearbox was fully sealed against the ingress of dirt and chips, operated by rotary controls and fitted with its own centralised lubrication system..
    A later model, the Sag 12S, looked rather different to the standard 12 however, it was basically the same lathe, but with 'squared'' styling and a more appealing blue paint finish. However, one major change was the replacement of an electric change gearbox by an expanding/contracting "Reeves" pulley-drive system, although the forward and reverse electric clutch and electric brake were retained and the speed, direction and braking of the spindle still controlled by switches on the carriage.
    Most of these SAG 12 lathes are found with a 3 HP motor - and weighed approximately 1000 kg..
     
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  2. talvare

    talvare United States Ted A H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks for posting this Nels. Hope there are some other Graziano owners on the forum. I've had my SAG14 for about 4 years and have really been enjoying it.

    Ted
     
  3. Skyboy

    Skyboy United States Marty Mayes Active Member

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    I have owned a SAG 14 for about 10 yrs. Have a couple minor issues I need to resolve - is there anyone on the forum familiar with how they are put together?
     
  4. talvare

    talvare United States Ted A H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I just saw your post. I have a SAG 14 but have never had much of it apart. I do have the manual which shows pretty good parts break-downs for the machine, so maybe I could be of some help. What are the "issues" you're having ?

    Ted
     
  5. Skyboy

    Skyboy United States Marty Mayes Active Member

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    Hi Ted, I need to pull the apron off and do some repairs/tuneup. The oil leaks out of the apron a little too fast. So I need to locate the source of the leak (most likely a seal) and repair as needed. Also, the cross slide feed will not fully engage. You can hold the lever and it works but the lever will not go over center so it will remain there without holding it. I have removed the feed handle cover and can not find any issues. It seems something is preventing the rod from pulling all the way out. I believe I have the manual as well, I'll look ate the parts I think are affected and get your opinion on it.
     
  6. talvare

    talvare United States Ted A H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Skyboy,
    I took a look at the parts break-down drawings for the cross feed engagement mechanism and it's a little difficult to figure out exactly how all of that works just by looking at the drawing. One thing I did notice is that there are a couple of dowel pins that lock various components to different shafts, so I think one of the first things I would look at are those pins to make sure one of them isn't sheared. I have seen pins shear where they leave a burr that tends to catch in one direction and not the other. I noticed that the hub that the engagement handle threads into has a pin through it that appears to lock that hub to a spur gear inside the enclosure (box ?). That spur gear appears to engage a round shaft with teeth on the bottom side that acts like a rack gear. Rotation of the spur gear via the engagement handle pulls that shaft/rack gear in and out to engage the cross feed drive gears. That shaft/rack gear also has a pin through it that could be sheared. Also, there is the adjustment knob at the bottom of that box that increases or decreases the engagement pressure of the clutch mechanism for the crossfeed/carriage drive. I don't know if that mechanism could cause your problem or not. Anyway, just kicking around some ideas. I'll look at the drawings some more to see if I can come up with anything.

    Ted
     
  7. Silverbullet

    Silverbullet Active Member Active Member

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    Don't rule out chips in there blocking the movement. It didn't get jammed did it ? Might have a half sheared pin or stretched thread. Just guessing but chips get everywhere. Always where you don't want them.
     

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